tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post115418728156873645..comments2024-03-20T03:12:56.498-05:00Comments on Lou Anders: The State of Science Fiction, Part IILou Andershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00694362734492222851noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-1154970270016219082006-08-07T12:04:00.000-05:002006-08-07T12:04:00.000-05:00Brin wrote an article at the time about the fact t...Brin wrote an article at the time about the fact that - irrespective of the actual merits of the film - a lot of the critics couldn't get behind the film's spirit of optimism and that this was a sad statement on the cynicism of our times and, therefore, the necessity of such a film.<BR/><BR/>Sadly, WATERWORLD cost Costner a lot of the love POSTMAN gained.Lou Andershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00694362734492222851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-1154965998031808642006-08-07T10:53:00.000-05:002006-08-07T10:53:00.000-05:00From a fan's perpective: I liked both versions of ...From a fan's perpective: I liked both versions of The Postman. As a fan I'm totally at ease with whether the critics or the mass audience get the point of the story or are even entertained, or, not. For me the fact that a "Costner" did Waterworld or The Postman is the important thing. He did it because he could - that's art baby.<BR/><BR/>Craig.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-1154807645053884712006-08-05T14:54:00.000-05:002006-08-05T14:54:00.000-05:00Am I the only one who liked that film?Am I the only one who liked that film?Lou Andershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00694362734492222851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-1154736487707278542006-08-04T19:08:00.000-05:002006-08-04T19:08:00.000-05:00Lou wrote, "Even a bad ENDER'S GAME film will boos...Lou wrote, "Even a bad ENDER'S GAME film will boost the booksales. After all, Michael Moore's film boosted Bradbury's sales and the only connection is the title."<BR/><BR/>'Tis true. Kevin Costner's film of <I>The Postman</I>, which made many critics' lists of the worst films of the year, put David Brin's novel on the <I>USA Today</I> bestsellers' list more than a decade after the book's first release.RobertJSawyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07740259797270341313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-1154725273967901842006-08-04T16:01:00.000-05:002006-08-04T16:01:00.000-05:00Thanks for those recommendations, Farah. I've bee...Thanks for those recommendations, Farah. I've been looking for something besides media ties to give my 10-year-old son to transition him from Harry Potter to science fiction.<BR/><BR/>Goodness knows I won't be giving him your forthcoming <I>Glorifying Terrorism</I> anthology. What kind of nuts do you get to write for a project like that? ;-)Aaron Hugheshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15160928027679516964noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-1154709483122225672006-08-04T11:38:00.000-05:002006-08-04T11:38:00.000-05:00There is a rennaissance in sf being produced for t...There is a rennaissance in sf being produced for the 11-14 range (after that just let them loose on the adult stuff).<BR/><BR/>Top recommendations:<BR/>Philip Reeve (the Mortal Engines sequence)<BR/>Conor Kostick, Epic (and Saga is due out next year)<BR/>Oisin McGann, The Harvest Tide Project and Small Minded Giants which has just been released.<BR/>Rhiannon Lassiter, Outland<BR/>Jan Mark, Useful Idiots<BR/>K.A. Applegate, Remnants (brilliant, despite their unlikely status as a "packed" book)<BR/>J. B. Stephens, The Big Empty (ibid)<BR/>Susan Price, Odin's Voice<BR/>Ann Halam, Siberia<BR/>William Sleator (anything frankly)<BR/><BR/>You will find reviews of many of these at <A HREF="http://farah-sf.blogspot.com" REL="nofollow">The Inter-Galactic Playground</A>. Posts have slowed a bit recently but I'll be posting a review of Kostick's newest book, _Saga_ by the end of the week.Farahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14101017914762871334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-1154708935226870292006-08-04T11:28:00.000-05:002006-08-04T11:28:00.000-05:00We are arguing at cross purposes. I think there is...We are arguing at cross purposes. I think there is a percentage that will never understand, get or be willing to set aside prejudice enough to get SF. But I think the vast majority of people simply haven't been exposed and aren't as neophilic as some think. Ordinary people surprise me all the time. I live in the deeply conservative south and am often surprised at how many people defy the stereotype that comes with the territory. <BR/><BR/>Meanwhile, from the latest <I>Ansible</I>: How We Used To See Ourselves, 54 Years Ago: `The average British fiction reader needs no introduction to "science fiction", although he may not have consciously applied the term to some of the stories he has read in the past, for Britain has been more the home of the scientific romance, pioneered by H.G. Wells, than any other country, despite developments elsewhere. Most of our prominent novelists have entered the fantasy field at some stage of their career, usually with highly successful results, and with the current Hollywood cycle of futuristic films, no doubts can be entertained by the man-in-the-street as to the meaning of the phrase.' (John Carnell, 1952)Lou Andershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00694362734492222851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-1154704686857043422006-08-04T10:18:00.000-05:002006-08-04T10:18:00.000-05:00I strongly disagree with the Stross comment. Most...I strongly disagree with the Stross comment. Most listeners of classical music have heard enough jazz to know it doesn't suit their tastes. In contrast, most readers of literary mainstream fiction (your "apple" readers) either have not read any science fiction, or have read it and liked it but did not realize it was science fiction.<BR/><BR/>Some portion of those readers would not care for science fiction even if they gave it a fair chance -- they do not have the suspension of disbelief in them to appreciate fantastic literature -- but I believe most of them would enjoy plenty of SF/F, if we could get the word out to them how much well-written work there is in our field.Aaron Hugheshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15160928027679516964noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-1154700883836334532006-08-04T09:14:00.000-05:002006-08-04T09:14:00.000-05:00Hi Bob,Charles Stross once said that trying to win...Hi Bob,<BR/>Charles Stross once said that trying to win over the literary mainstream to SF was like trying to convince classical music purists of the legitamacy of jazz, and was a pointless excersize. And I do think some people like apples and just can't grasp that oranges are real fruit too. But that's a snobbery between genres ("literate" being a genre too), and not what you are talking about, which is the broader, more mainstream reader's ability to grasp or not grasp an SF trope. To this I point to the huge success of SF in other media - film, tv, videogames, cartoons - and say that there is a huge, untapped audience that are perfectly capable of being receptive if we can reach them.<BR/><BR/>My mother is a mystery reader, everything from sophisticated historicals to feline sleuths, and she keeps a dictionary by her reading chair. A willingness to look up words isn't just an SFnal trait! <BR/><BR/>Now, I do find that the category of SF&F book that tends to be nominated for awards (as opposed to more adventure-oriented SF books as typified by Baen and related), does tend to be written with a higher quality of prose & present a greater challenge to the reader than the average mystery, but in this case, the comparison - in terms of the quality of the writing - is not to the mainsteram but to that aforementioned apple genre. And there, the problem may not be with the subject matter, but with the dwindling pool of people able to appreciate a rarified taste. More people eat hamburgers than sushi, after all.<BR/><BR/>Who was it that said that writing is the only job where the better you get, the worse your sales are?Lou Andershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00694362734492222851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-1154692390372733662006-08-04T06:53:00.000-05:002006-08-04T06:53:00.000-05:00Hi all,Unfortunately, I think it isn’t a matter of...Hi all,<BR/><BR/>Unfortunately, I think it isn’t a matter of tailoring your SF story to fit the psyche of let’s say ‘a normal reader’ i.e. one who would gladly pick up and read an adventure story, thriller, detective etc. I believe to really appreciate and understand SF you have to be gifted with a certain mindset and desideratum to be lifted from the mundane and taken to places, times, events that <I>‘normals’</I> have no hunger for.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps some themes cross the boundaries e.g. Star Wars, ET etc but I wonder how many non-SF readers would have bothered to pick up the book and read it if they hadn’t been able to see the film version?<BR/><BR/>Another thing that I think precludes people from reading SF is that, more often than not, it demands a higher attention span, and ability to suspend belief in all that you know and believe true and go with the story to see where it takes you.<BR/><BR/>People in general seem to require <I>‘the quick fix’</I> more and more in every element of their lives. From foods they can just throw into a microwave and then into their mouths, to entertainment, whether it be films or books where somewhere along the line the dreaded ‘info-dump’ or ‘idiot’s explanation’ where you’ll have one character explaining to another what has just happened (incase the viewer or reader didn’t work it out for themselves). <BR/>Usually in SF, the writer knows that his reader is prepared to go that extra mile and work out the plot twists for him/herself, it is part of what I’ve mentioned before, our mindset. <BR/>We aren’t averse to looking up a word in a dictionary if we don’t understand its connotation, and probably become enthused by the challenge. <BR/>However, non-SF readers I believe would quickly become fatigued by the trial. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t mean to condone the use of, ‘why use two words when ten will do’, attitude, for even the most avid SF reader can flag under the challenge of some books, (for me it was Appleseed, sorry John if you read this, it’s only my personal opinion, and what do I know!).<BR/><BR/>I’ve been lucky enough to have a SF novel of mine <A HREF="http://www.youwriteon.com/books/samplechapters.aspx?bookguid=cdeb24c4-ad41-45d1-88ff-93f2efe75335" REL="nofollow"><B>Flames of Herakleitos</B></A> hold first position in the SF Genre of www.youwriteon.com , which is sponsored by the Arts Council of England, since the beginning of the year. It’s received one hundred and ten reviews (mostly favourable… thank goodness!) but it has also had remarks that start with, <I>‘SF/SFF isn’t really my genre’</I>, and usually lead up to,<I> ‘why use words like thaumaturgy, legerdemain, hex and glamour? I don’t know what some of them mean.’</I> That can be disheartening because they are words chosen for their particular meaning and to substitute them with say, magic, sorcery or wizardry would (IMHO) weaken what I was trying to convey, but the non-SF reader would have understood. <BR/><BR/>So, to sum up, I think it would be extremely difficult to write a ‘catch-all’ type of SF/SFF book which would appeal to hard-core SF readers and ‘normals’ alike, both types of readers have different hungers and to satiate one you’ll probably starve the other.Bob Lockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03141837277102776901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-1154535021263814412006-08-02T11:10:00.000-05:002006-08-02T11:10:00.000-05:00Even a bad ENDER'S GAME film will boost the booksa...Even a bad ENDER'S GAME film will boost the booksales. After all, Michael Moore's film boosted Bradbury's sales and the only connection is the title.<BR/><BR/>I do agree with JP that it needs to be epic, but I think you can do epic without incorporating the sins of STAR WARS. Me, if I had a few hundred million, I'd be filming John Meaney.Lou Andershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00694362734492222851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-1154534200116516442006-08-02T10:56:00.000-05:002006-08-02T10:56:00.000-05:00And Ender's Game may have another resurgence in po...And <I>Ender's Game</I> may have another resurgence in popularity, if they get the movie finished and it is done well.<BR/><BR/>A couple well-made films that are true SF, as opposed to science fantasy like <I>Star Wars</I>, could be all we need to generate a surge of interest in SF in the mainstream -- just as Harry Potter and the <I>Lord of the Rings</I> films have done for fantasy.Aaron Hugheshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15160928027679516964noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-1154531359780464012006-08-02T10:09:00.000-05:002006-08-02T10:09:00.000-05:00Hi JP,Time magazine recently called Battlestar Gal...Hi JP,<BR/><I>Time</I> magazine recently called <I>Battlestar Galactica</I> the best drama on television. This and the <I>USA Today</I> article that distinguished between SF in the tradition of Wells and Bradbury from <I>Star Wars</I> are both signs that the wider world is starting to come around to the "science fiction isn't just geeky" perception. And since Hollywood reaches millions to our thousands, all it takes is a few such macro-memes to shift perception. <BR/><BR/>Meanwhile, I think you underestimate <I>Ender's Game.</I>. 1977 and it still sells something like 100,000 copies a year.Lou Andershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00694362734492222851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-1154528427625833902006-08-02T09:20:00.000-05:002006-08-02T09:20:00.000-05:00Lou,I agree that Ender's Game comes closest to wha...Lou,<BR/><BR/>I agree that Ender's Game comes closest to what we are talking about, it failed to generate the hype, and interest, in the wider audience that Harry Potter has. I think this has to do with the fact that it <EM>is</EM> SF (and comes with all the negatives associated with that by the mainstream) and, possibly more important, the ending is not really a happy ending. Ender basically commits genocide and carries that guilt with him, even though he was tricked into doing so. In HP and the Philosopher's Stone, Harry is victorious at the end and everyone goes home happy till the next time.<BR/><BR/>I think SF is going to need something that people in general don't necessarily see as SF and is generally upbeat. Either that or SF needs a massive shift in perception from something geeky to something good to read. I hope either, or both!, of these things happen.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-1154451597064565742006-08-01T11:59:00.000-05:002006-08-01T11:59:00.000-05:00Hi JP, Tamara - again, I think ENDER'S GAME comes ...Hi JP, Tamara - again, I think ENDER'S GAME comes the closest.<BR/>I think John Meaney's Nulapeiron Sequence does this for adults, though it subverts the elitist nature of the traditional fairy tale (unlike STAR WARS - the narrative is very concerned with class, as is, for that matter, Harry Potter).Lou Andershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00694362734492222851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-1154448931162868532006-08-01T11:15:00.000-05:002006-08-01T11:15:00.000-05:00RE: Scalzi (and you!) "What I would love to see is...RE: Scalzi (and you!) "What I would love to see is SF lit make a play for mainstream readers, by any means necessary. Put the books in covers the mundanes can grok; give them some stories they don't feel like they're missing the joke on; fight to get stories where people are instead of where we wish they would go. Of course, it's easy to say this and more difficult to do. But the fact is: SF has a fine image. It's up to SF literature to get a piece of it."<BR/><BR/>Bravo!<BR/><BR/>To add a slightly different twist on the selfsame subject matter:<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/wa2/margin/MarginNewsBlog/index.blog?entry_id=1205561" REL="nofollow">Is there room for children's perspectives and science fiction tropes in magical realism?</A><BR/>A discussion about the Spanish film, "Spirit of the Beehive."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-1154444974505395382006-08-01T10:09:00.000-05:002006-08-01T10:09:00.000-05:00"at heart we readers still love our knights and pr..."at heart we readers still love our knights and princesses"<BR/><BR/>Since we're talking about YA SF, shouldn't SF for YA focus more on the Campbellian hero's quest rather than trying to describe a more egalitarian setting? In other words, are teens and pre-teens more accepting of prince and princess type stories? Harry Potter, of course, being a good example of the 'prince' story. At what point will the publishing field realize that the media tie-in gravy train that is Star Wars is actually a 'prince and princess' story set in SF trappings and that adapting this for young readers might actually be a really good, and profitable, thing?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-1154352267771263492006-07-31T08:24:00.000-05:002006-07-31T08:24:00.000-05:00I am writing a series of SF novels for young adult...I am writing a series of SF novels for young adults, and it is being published in Sweden, and a book club has taken it up... this is happening as of now.<BR/><BR/>But Sweden ain't America. Just sayin'.A.R.Yngvehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03972668378286177600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-1154312507539156722006-07-30T21:21:00.000-05:002006-07-30T21:21:00.000-05:00And the time to hook them is when they are 10 - 12...And the time to hook them is when they are 10 - 12. SF is a drug like any other, get them on it early and you've got them for life.Lou Andershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00694362734492222851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-1154311812240509772006-07-30T21:10:00.000-05:002006-07-30T21:10:00.000-05:00My kids (especially the older one, 10, since he's ...My kids (especially the older one, 10, since he's reading more) love fantasy, but they''ve also been reaching around trying to find SF as well. It's been frustrating to see what's out there and what isn't; yeah, I've enjoyed writing stories for Julie Czerneda's YA fantasy books, but I'd sure like to see equivalents in SF. Hell, the kids I've gone and talked to at schools want the same things.<BR/><BR/>There are plenty of people out there who will never know the "language" and will therefore always be out of the loop anytime you try and get them to read SF. But you know, I've had friends that wouldn't even read fiction of any sort. You shrug your shoulders and move on, try and identify the people who maybe will go for that ride.<BR/><BR/>DDerryl Murphyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00770159992186256355noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-1154294159800117712006-07-30T16:15:00.000-05:002006-07-30T16:15:00.000-05:00Some but very little. In fact, a writer I know who...Some but very little. In fact, a writer I know who worked up a middle-reader SF series was told by at least one publisher that they would buy it if he would change the technology to magic. <BR/><BR/>ENDER'S GAME is the last thing I can point to that's been a really successful SF in the YA market. We need a JK Rowling of science fiction desperately, IMHO.<BR/><BR/>Though if you look at ENDER'S GAME, you have an underdog in a special school waking up to the fact that he is special.<BR/><BR/>David Brin has pointed out at great lengths the dangers of the Joseph Campbell "hero's quest" in his STAR WARS vs STAR TREK analysis, and I think there is some truth that while the egalitarian philosophy of the latter is closer to the SF world-view, at heart we readers still love our knights and princesses.Lou Andershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00694362734492222851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-1154284527132212232006-07-30T13:35:00.000-05:002006-07-30T13:35:00.000-05:00But is YA SF not growing because the publishers ar...But is YA SF not growing because the publishers aren't focusing on it? How much of it are they buying and how much effort are they spending promoting it?David Louis Edelmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14967619197259625084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-1154283679739991862006-07-30T13:21:00.000-05:002006-07-30T13:21:00.000-05:00Sorry David, go look at the YA special that Locus ...Sorry David, go look at the YA special that Locus did a while back. There has been a massive boom in YA publishing in the past few years. All of it is fantasy. YA SF hasn't grown at all.<BR/><BR/>I'd be tempted to look at movie tie-ins. Obviously they appear to the movie-goers, and with people like Karen Traviss and Sean Williams writing them they can't all be rubbish.Cherylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09328347167113836522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-1154281984954766572006-07-30T12:53:00.000-05:002006-07-30T12:53:00.000-05:00Maybe there's some truth to what the advertisers s...Maybe there's some truth to what the advertisers say: go after the young people.<BR/><BR/>Fantasy started really heating up and taking off with the Harry Potter books and the <EM>LOTR</EM> films. And while both can certainly be enjoyed by an older crowd, their core audiences are predominantly young. Like, teenage young. MySpace young. YA and pre-YA.<BR/><BR/>Do we have anything like that today in SF? Is there a healthy YA market for SF? So many of us were hooked to the genre by those Heinlein and Asimov books. Is there a J.K. Rowling for the SF crowd? (Terry Pratchett?)<BR/><BR/>Hook 'em while they're young, that's what I say. And as they grow, the market will grow with them.David Louis Edelmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14967619197259625084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-1154280559517762322006-07-30T12:29:00.000-05:002006-07-30T12:29:00.000-05:00Paul is dead right. Estrangement is something that...Paul is dead right. Estrangement is something that we SF fans love, and which mainstream readers find it much harder to cope with. That's why the hapless Iztkoff for off to such a bad start by saying that estrangement was bad. And as Rob Sawyer says, it isn't necessarily science that is off-putting, it is often how it is presented.<BR/><BR/>But the thing to remember when people say "I don't like science fiction" is that they are probably making a statement similar to someone saying "I don't like Indian food" because the only such food they have had is something spiced to the max and covered in grease in a cheap English curry house. You'll never get someone like that into a top class Indian restaurant. What you might be able to do is get them into an "Asian fusion" restaurant that serves a variety of Asian cuisines and doesn't label where the dishes come from. Then your problem is that after having wolfed down their curry and praised it to the skies, if you then tell them what it is, they will then say, "Oh, that wasn't Indian food - it wasn't too spicy or too greasy."<BR/><BR/>Or, to put it another way, when Margaret Atwood says that all science fiction is "talking squid in space", she doesn't mean that all books Lou Anders like all have talking squid in them, she means that the books Lou Anders likes that do not have talking squid in them are, by her definition, not "science fiction."Cherylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09328347167113836522noreply@blogger.com