tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post4942414354932364329..comments2024-03-20T03:12:56.498-05:00Comments on Lou Anders: So It Goes: Thoughts on the Cassandra GhettoLou Andershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00694362734492222851noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-70399668236465613702007-04-16T22:32:00.000-05:002007-04-16T22:32:00.000-05:00Oh, and I see Kay Kenyon has some thoughts on the ...Oh, and I see Kay Kenyon has some thoughts on the subject here:<BR/>http://kenyonsf.livejournal.com/4313.htmlLou Andershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00694362734492222851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-2810058920453969292007-04-16T21:41:00.000-05:002007-04-16T21:41:00.000-05:00This from Locus:"Cormac McCarthy's post-apocalypti...This from Locus:<BR/><BR/>"Cormac McCarthy's post-apocalyptic novel The Road is winner of this year's Pulitzer Prize for fiction; Ray Bradbury is winner of a special citation, "for his distinguished, prolific and deeply influential career as an unmatched author of science fiction and fantasy."Lou Andershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00694362734492222851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-5137469142720132862007-04-16T10:17:00.000-05:002007-04-16T10:17:00.000-05:00But can Genre BE killed? How's it done?:-SBut can Genre BE killed? How's it done?<BR/>:-SA.R.Yngvehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03972668378286177600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-80799971189291466442007-04-15T23:43:00.000-05:002007-04-15T23:43:00.000-05:00You know, I see this discussion going on and on fo...You know, I see this discussion going on and on for a while (and it should, we need to formalize how we as a community address SF&F), but what we forget is that genre has hurt writers as much as depriving readers of all the good stuff.<BR/><BR/>For the past 40 years, before a writer has laid a single word onto a page, he or she has already decided what 'type' of writer they want to be-- SF, Fantasy, Horror, 'Literary', Post-modern, whathaveyou and therefore they lock themselves into a mode of writing that has limits.<BR/><BR/>Now here we are creating words like 'slipstream', or magical realism, or meta-fiction, for writers who <I>are breaking genre rules</I> (in and outside of SF& F: Murakami, David Mitchell,etc.)... These writers don't see genre, they see <B>technique</B>, and this is what discussions like this get lost in. Conversely, within SF&F the craft of <I>prose</I> is often overlooked in favor of plot and quite frankly some SF&F authors could stand to take short journeys outside of the genre, to visit Woolf, Delillo, Mccarthy, Steinbeck, to name but a few.<BR/><BR/>We need to change the very words we use to analyze writing so that we can wash this stigmatism out of our collective consciousnesses and allow writers to expand their 'toolkit' and readers to explore more methods of storytelling.<BR/><BR/>I agree with Clive Barker: Genre should die.<BR/><BR/>I know someone will post about how genre is necessary to 'guide' the publishing industry and the readers, and for marketing purposes, but THAT IS NOT A VALID RETORT. It's like saying, "Well, it's always been like this so..." And that simply is not true. Thanks Lou for bringing together many aspects of this discussion for us to mull over.Vladimir @ Fantastic Planethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16345958843568394009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-7730698963116794252007-04-15T16:34:00.000-05:002007-04-15T16:34:00.000-05:00Mind you, not all science fiction is doing badly. ...Mind you, not all science fiction is doing badly. Film and tv tie-ins seem to be doing quite well, judging by the number of them in the shops.<BR/>ted's right, by the way; we are guilty of wanting to have our cake and eat it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-73886264921233741892007-04-15T15:03:00.000-05:002007-04-15T15:03:00.000-05:00Maybe the very name "science fiction" was a burden...Maybe the very <I>name</I> "science fiction" was a burden from the start. (Damn you, Hugo Gernsback!) I wish the label "Speculative Fiction" had been around a lot longer.A.R.Yngvehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03972668378286177600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-29829276532474557492007-04-15T02:12:00.000-05:002007-04-15T02:12:00.000-05:00Lou, I think you're making a mistake by discussing...Lou, I think you're making a mistake by discussing fantasy and SF in the same terms. The fantasy label doesn't hurt sales, but the SF label does. No one is "leaving money on the table" by stigmatizing genre; YA fantasy sold as fantasy sells very well, while Scott Westerfeld's SF YA novels probably sell better without the SF label. They'd be leaving money on the table if they insisted on the SF label. <BR/><BR/>And when you say that it's time to "quit worrying about whether or not it's literature," who are you talking to? It seems like you're one of the people who want more respect for SF. Either position is a reasonable one to take, but not both at the same time.Tedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00799259633965559067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-76388021869803959572007-04-14T16:20:00.000-05:002007-04-14T16:20:00.000-05:00I wish that the magazine Science Fiction Age had m...I wish that the magazine Science Fiction Age had made it into the 21st century, as this truly is the "science fiction age," not in terms of the genre's popularity, but in terms of our living in an SFnal world. That's still my favorite title for a magazine - a title which makes a point we need to get across. I don't want to hide the label of Science Fiction, I want to reclaim it. "This stuff is fun. This stuff is relevant. Get over your bad self. We live in the future. Now get with the times!"Lou Andershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00694362734492222851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-166815615773063462007-04-14T16:05:00.000-05:002007-04-14T16:05:00.000-05:00And I don't quite understand how that happened. On...And I don't quite understand how that happened. Once upon a time I could go into a mainstream bookshop and buy <I>tons</I> of science fiction - even the tiny bookstall at Sheffield railway station had a full set of the <I>Lensman</I> novels. Nowadays you go into a bookshop and the sf/f/h are usually all lumped together onto a couple of shelves. How is science fiction supposed to attract readers if they don't know what there is available, and can't walk into a shop and buy it?<BR/>Okay, I know, we have the internet now and if someone's interested in science fiction they can look it up, but if someone's interested in, say, Thomas Harris, all they've got to do is go into a bookshop and wander around the shop's extensive crime and thriller section. Where they will probably see other books that catch their eye and maybe buy them. And so on.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-51517086670436217452007-04-13T21:19:00.000-05:002007-04-13T21:19:00.000-05:00No, you're absolutely right. And what's more, we n...No, you're absolutely right. And what's more, we need to get across that science fiction is <I>a genre</I>, in the full range and sense of that word, and not a single style or school of thought. <BR/><BR/>This never happens in other genres:<BR/><BR/>A: What are you reading?<BR/>B: Hannibal Rising, by Thomas Harris.<BR/>A: Oh, yeah. What's that about?<BR/>B: It's about the early formative years of a man who will become one of the most famous serial killers of his day, although he is also a genius.<BR/>A: Oh, so it's a mystery book?<BR/>B: Yeah, I guess so.<BR/>A: I read a mystery once. Sneaky Pie Brown the Crime Solving Cat. I didn't like it. It was silly; cat's don't solve crimes in <I>real</I> life. I guess mystery isn't for me. <BR/><BR/>Somehow, it's understood that the mystery/thriller genre encapsulates something for everyone and fans of gritty crime serials and fans of cozies, and they aren't all lumped together like SF is.Lou Andershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00694362734492222851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-3267445078363476862007-04-13T17:10:00.000-05:002007-04-13T17:10:00.000-05:00Outstanding post, and thanks for pointing to the T...Outstanding post, and thanks for pointing to the <I>Telegraph</I> article; I missed that one somehow. It's heartening when one of the heavyweight dailies runs an article which takes very seriously a series which is not only science fiction but was, until recently, considered by much of popular culture to be just a kids' show.<BR/>It might be too early to talk of a sea change in the media's attitude to science fiction, but if there is one I think it will be important. From where I stand, it looks to me that the popular media has for quite a long time regarded science fiction as a kind of deformed cousin of literature, something you keep in the attic and don't mention at dinner. I think that attitude has trickled down to the reading public: there's something `wrong' with science fiction (unless it's officially-sanctioned movie science fiction) and if you read it there's something just a little bit wrong with you too.<BR/>I saw a quote in one of the Vonnegut obituaries about him not being keen on being put in the filing drawer marked `science fiction' because critics `mistake that drawer for a porcelain receptacle in a restroom.' And that was in the 1960s.<BR/>I think that's been the weight science fiction has been labouring under in the public perception for too long: either it's literary (and therefore not science fiction at all) or it's that stuff about spaceships and aliens that socially maladjusted types read. It's notable that, with the noble exception of <I>The Guardian</I>, you rarely see science fiction reviewed in the papers over here, whereas most of the heavyweights will have, at least once a month, a roundup of thrillers and crime fiction. That needs to change, and the reviews need to be intelligently-written, by people who know what they're talking about, not someone who's going to write, `In Dave Hutchinson's new novel Zog goes to Planet P and...oh, look, a butterfly...' It strikes me that we need to convert the unconverted, and to do that we need to be up in their faces, showing them what we can do, and to do that we first have to let them know we're here.<BR/>Sorry about the rant. Makes a change from `Hm,' I guess...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-16387332140458703642007-04-13T15:15:00.000-05:002007-04-13T15:15:00.000-05:00I look forward - but not impatiently, understandin...I look forward - but not impatiently, understanding as I do about wives and weekends.Lou Andershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00694362734492222851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-66761089850949293872007-04-13T15:05:00.000-05:002007-04-13T15:05:00.000-05:00Lou,Sorry for the late response, I've been terribl...Lou,<BR/><BR/>Sorry for the late response, I've been terribly busy.<BR/><BR/>I'm going to write up a couple of posts on SFSignal that will detail my ideas I mentioned above. I'd like to flesh them out in my head before putting them down in a comment, so, I guess, look for them sometime over the weekend, possibly on Monday (depending on what things my wife wants me to do this weekend..)!<BR/><BR/>Hopefully, they will be interesting.<BR/><BR/>JPAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-26722631491148321082007-04-13T13:45:00.000-05:002007-04-13T13:45:00.000-05:00Paul,thanks for the love and the link. I really li...Paul,<BR/>thanks for the love and the link. I really like this quote:<BR/><BR/>"...what has happened historically is that the straight world, the world of straight critics and the people, the taste-makers, have taken the cream, if you will, off each generation and decided it is no longer generic, it’s ‘Classic’, right? And that’s fucked, let’s be honest, that’s fucked; it’s a lie.<BR/><BR/>"I think we should cancel the word genre, I think we should throw the word genre out. We are not a genre, which suggests a small or perhaps even somewhat besieged condition - we are a continent and, actually most of the smaller things which came along afterwards like naturalism, realism, these things are a mere 200 years old, to pick up Ramsey’s word, they are striplings. How long has naturalistic fiction been around – maybe 300 years?"<BR/><BR/>"We are in a tradition which began, we may assume, around campfires as stories were told and gods were made and goddesses were worshipped and the fundamentals, the primal concerns of human beings, were laid out. Fuck genre – this isn’t about genre, this is about the fact that we are writing and painting and making in film form expressions of the profoundest issues of the human heart!"Lou Andershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00694362734492222851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-51182423861494777812007-04-13T13:19:00.000-05:002007-04-13T13:19:00.000-05:00Hi Lou,Great post! I love your summation:"So it's ...Hi Lou,<BR/><BR/>Great post! I love your summation:<BR/><BR/>"So it's time to acknowledge that it's a hell of a lot more fun to actually, well, have fun than it is to pick on those who are enjoying themselves. The stigma applied to the genre books relegated to the back of the bookstore is nothing less than money being left on the table. Quit looking down your nose and pick it up." <BR/><BR/>This reminds me of Clive Barker's 2006 FantasyCon speech (which I found linked from Neil Gaiman's site):<BR/><BR/><A>http://www.clivebarker.info/newsfantasycon2.html</A>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-90495598429358413302007-04-13T11:03:00.000-05:002007-04-13T11:03:00.000-05:00Aaron, I don't disagree with you. And I wouldn't w...Aaron, I don't disagree with you. And I wouldn't want to stop, inside genre or personally, advocating SF as literature. But I'm very concerned when the kids who are reading Harry Potter in the millions march out of the YA section and head to the SF&F, they will be met by gatekeepers who say, "Oh, you don't want to go here, that's for nerds." Whereas if I were a bookseller, I'd be painting glowing footprints on the floor and erecting big Warner Bros cartoon arrows and pointing hands saying "Go here next! Go here next!" I think that the "SF - is it literature or not?" debate is very, very old, and will never be completely won - let those who have ears to hear, hear and all that. But that the financial argument might have power to sway some of those gatekeepers to step out of the way. But with everything I post here, I am very open to opinions and discussion - I post to explore and learn. Which is why I want JP to share!Lou Andershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00694362734492222851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-33423314242752153992007-04-13T10:29:00.001-05:002007-04-13T10:29:00.001-05:00Hey JP,First, you can't keep me in suspense. What ...Hey JP,<BR/>First, you can't keep me in suspense. What are these ideas? Share them! Share them! <BR/><BR/>Second, my sense is also that it seems to be the UK press cluing in first, and that the Guardian has had a fairly healthy attitude about SF for awhile now. I'm about to upload an update courtesy of Sean Williams of a Wired magazine article that joins the crusade. And I'd very much like to see more in the US along these lines. I think that, for all the flak it's generating, the NY Times reviewing SF regularly again is a good thing, as is the new column that the LA Times is about to initiate, though more important would be reviews that didn't segregate, but reviewed SF alongside other genres, and articles like the Wired one that pokes fun at the purveyors of the stigma. I think there is a real struggle to rebrand literate SF going on now - as the USA Today article "Science Fiction Gets Real" that I touted heavily last year partakes of (there's another US one) -alongside a parallel move to get people to lighten up and admit they enjoy things other than drab realism.Lou Andershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00694362734492222851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-78590395713456640862007-04-13T10:29:00.000-05:002007-04-13T10:29:00.000-05:00Lou, if your new approach to outward-focused discu...Lou, if your new approach to outward-focused discussions is financial, doesn't that feed into the false stereotype that genre fiction is popular but lacks literary merit?<BR/><BR/>Everyone in the mainstream is aware that Stephen King sells a lot of books, but they still don't acknowledge that anyone in the horror field can write.<BR/><BR/>I don't particularly care about getting credit from the literary elite, except that it drives me nuts that so many intelligent readers never give SF/F/H a try, because they mistakenly believe that the knuckleheads at the New York Times know what they're talking about.Aaron Hugheshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15160928027679516964noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-68778797998548837402007-04-13T10:00:00.000-05:002007-04-13T10:00:00.000-05:00Lou,Thanks to you and this post, I am going to act...Lou,<BR/><BR/>Thanks to you and this post, I am going to actually get around to doing a couple of things I've had kicking around my head to do. One will involve the Harry Potter midnight release madness and the other is related to the Oprah Book Club thing. <BR/><BR/>Both are an attempt to get good SF books in front of non-genre readers. You've just given the motivation to do it!<BR/><BR/>Second, I noticed that the British press are the ones who seem to be realizing that SF may not be as 'bad' as previously thought. Have you seen anything in the US along these lines? Hopefully the attitudes here will change as well. Maybe there ought to be some web site that says, 'Yes, you are reading SF!' SLAUGHTER HOUSE FIVE? SF. ORYX AND CRAKE? SF. And so on. <BR/><BR/>Hmm.<BR/><BR/>JPAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-5626018555656347852007-04-13T09:38:00.000-05:002007-04-13T09:38:00.000-05:00Hi Cheryl - I bought 10 floor to ceiling, 8 ft tal...Hi Cheryl - I bought 10 floor to ceiling, 8 ft tall, shelves, with sliding ladder, etc... I still have books elsewhere (including another vanity bookshelf in another part of the library), and I am dreading what happens when these are full, as they almost are.<BR/>Paul - you are misattributing your quotes!Lou Andershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00694362734492222851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-64285563088522572782007-04-13T03:55:00.000-05:002007-04-13T03:55:00.000-05:00Ed Joyce, until recently an opener for England, ha...Ed Joyce, until recently an opener for England, has just become Irish again. Thus proving Kim Stanley Robinson correct.Paul Cornellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07366796946594435087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-75033200194026259072007-04-12T23:33:00.000-05:002007-04-12T23:33:00.000-05:00You have enough shelf space to be organized like t...You have enough shelf space to be organized like that? Kevin and I just about manage piles of fiction in one room and piles of non-fiction in the others.Cherylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09328347167113836522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-33152912896215792007-04-12T23:19:00.000-05:002007-04-12T23:19:00.000-05:00Hi Cheryl,That is a really interesting observation...Hi Cheryl,<BR/>That is a really interesting observation. I think I would have assumed the just didn't stock hardcovers and trade paperbacks and wouldn't have looked elsewhere. I am about two steps away from reshelving my entire library without any genre divisions. <BR/><BR/>For one thing, I have Cavalier & Clay in my literary section, but Final Solution with my Sherlock Holmes books. When I get Yiddish Policeman, it will go in SF! And of course his two anthologies in the anthology section. Poor Chabon will be spread all over!Lou Andershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00694362734492222851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11303103.post-88568407376737625732007-04-12T23:08:00.000-05:002007-04-12T23:08:00.000-05:00It's a bit like the way members of the Ireland cri...<I>It's a bit like the way members of the Ireland cricket team become English once they reach a certain level... </I><BR/><BR/>Brilliant, absolutely brilliant.<BR/><BR/>And a note in passing. I was in a book store in central Chicago yesterday. They had an SF/F section. All the books in it were mass market. The hardcover and trade paperbacks, in some cases of the <B>same</B> books were shelved in "fiction". Go figure.Cherylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09328347167113836522noreply@blogger.com